by Secret records provide the “ultimate proof” that former Post Office chief executive Paula Vennells knew about issues with Horizon’s IT system at the same time staff were being prosecuted, a long-time campaigner has claimed the day in question.
In an audio recording obtained by ITV News, Vennells appears to have been present at a meeting in 2013 which suggested she was told in reports that submaster accounts could be accessed remotely. The warnings were given by forensic accountants Ian Henderson and Ron Warmington, independent investigators from Second Sight.
It comes as recordings previously released by Channel 4 revealed that some members of Post Office management knew that Horizon’s IT system could be faulty.
On Wednesday, Lord Arbuthnot – a member of Horizon’s compensation advisory board and a long-time campaigner on the issue – told ITV News they were the “final proof” that Vennells had been told about the faults with Horizon.
What are the recordings?
In the tape, Henderson and Warmington reportedly told Post Office executives, including Vennells, that Fujitsu staff had access to live data. They said: “The last thing you want is a review response on the spot that says, clearly there was no access to live data from Bracknell if in a week some bloody whistleblower pipes up to say, well, really i was working on the second floor.and we did ‘X’ regularly.
“When you say they didn’t have access to the Horizon system, but in fact they were making entries to live data… that’s dangerous ground.”
Separate audio obtained by Channel 4 News and published on Tuesday also suggests that Vennells knew about Horizon’s issues.
The recording, from 2013, shows Warmington referring to a “covert operations team” at Fujitsu’s headquarters in Bracknell who could remotely access and alter submasters’ accounts.
A lawyer for the Post Office can then be heard saying: “[Paula] he knows about the allegation. She knows we are working on it.
“She has everything. The way I tried to inform Paula is, as soon as I have evidence that there is a problem, she knows the next minute.”
The lawyer later says: “She knows about the allegation. She knows we’re working on it.”
Vennells was Chief Executive of the Post Office between 2012 and 2019, during a period in which submasters were unfairly prosecuted for theft and fraud.
She told MPs in 2015, the Post Office said in written evidence to MPs that remote access to payments was not possible for Horizon. It was only in the High Court in 2019 that the Post Office admitted that it could exist.
In 2020 – seven years after the secret tapes were recorded, Vennells wrote to MP Darren Jones, who chaired the Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy Committee, to tell him that she had “raised this issue time and time again, internally and with Fujitsu, and the answer was always the same: that it was not possible to change branch records remotely without the submaster’s knowledge”.
‘Serious consequences’
Responding to the tapes, Lord Arbuthnot told ITV News they were the “ultimate proof” that Vennells had been told about Horizon’s faults. He said: “This recording will answer that question because Paula Vennells had heeded the warning given by Ron Warmington and Ian Henderson, that remote access was possible and that it would be very dangerous for her to continue to declare as she continued to do confirming that. remote access was not possible.”
He added: “These people who visited terrible things on the sub-masters must be visited with a very serious dismissal. The consequences should be very serious indeed. It’s not for me as a politician to establish them, I think those are things that should be dealt with by prosecuting authorities and judge and jury.”
Liam Byrne, Labor chairman of the Commons Business and Trade Committee, said in response to the Channel 4 recording: “We are deeply concerned by the latest revelations about the Post Office and will be exploring options to punish the leadership who presided over the scandal.
“All options are on the table, including the House of Commons exercising its powers in contempt of Parliament.
“We must ensure that we do not risk any future legal action or undermine the public inquiry into Sir Wyn Williams. I will present options to my Committee when Parliament returns later this month for careful consideration.”
Vennells told ITV News that she was “deeply saddened by the devastation caused to the sub-masters and their families, whose lives have been torn apart by being wrongly accused and wrongly prosecuted as a result of the Horizon system”. Yahoo News has contacted Vennells’ lawyers for comment.
A Fujitsu spokesman declined to comment on the latest recordings when questioned by Yahoo News UK, citing the ongoing public inquiry. He added: “The Fujitsu Group takes this matter very seriously and extends its deepest apologies to the sub-masters and their families.”
A Post Office spokesman declined to comment on the recordings, telling Yahoo News UK: “We remain fully focused on getting to the truth and supporting the statutory Public Inquiry, chaired by a judge who the power to examine witnesses on oath. , so he is in the best position to help achieve this.”
What did Paula Vennells say? Key comments
In the internal email chain written on 30 January 2015Vennells wrote to two officials at the Post Office:
“Dear, please help with the answers and the phrasing of those answers, as preparation for the AS [select committee]:
1) “is it possible to access the system remotely? We are told yes.” What is the real answer? I hope we know this is not possible and can explain why. I have to say that it is not possible and that we are sure of this because of xxx and that we know because of the system to be sure of us.”
2) “You have said this is a critical system for the Post Office, what test do you do and how often? When was the last time?”
Speaking to Members on the BIS Select Committee on 3 February 2015Vennells said:
“We are a business that really cares about the people who work for us. If there were any miscarriages of justice, it would be very important to me and the Post Office that we dealt with them. As the investigations progressed, so as you know, we are required under the Disclosure Act to report anything we come across that could contribute to that. to be heard, as they told us they weren’t.”
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