by Chris Bryant has been the Labor MP for the Rhondda since 2001. He is the shadow minister for the creative and digital industries, and former chairman of the Commons committee on standards and privileges. He has published eight books; ninth, James and John: A True Story of Prejudice and Murderout last month, a recreation of the life and death of James Pratt and John Smith, who in 1835 were the last men hanged for homosexuality in Britain.
James and John both tell the story of a terrible injustice and highlight how widespread the persecution of gay men was in this country: 404 Britons were sentenced to death for the same “crime”. How did you approach this particular situation?
A few years ago [in 2020]I wrote a book called The Glamor Boys about some gay MPs in the 1930s who were killed in the war. I had to get my head into the law as it was in the 1920s and beyond. And that’s how I came across this situation. I would assume that it would be impossible to find much information about Séamus and Seán: they were working-class boys – and one of them was called John Smith. But then I discovered that not only had Charles Dickens visited Newgate prison when they were held there, but also that the government had just appointed the first prison inspectors. And Newgate was their first visit when James and John were awaiting execution, so they wrote extensively in their report to parliament.
Did you feel like you got to know them well over the years?
I got to know them well in silhouette. I can’t be sure, for example, how old John Smith was when he died because the newspapers reported it differently. But, for example, with William Bonell, the person who provided the room for them to meet in and ended up transporting to Van Diemen’s Land, there is a lot of material from the prison ship: how high it was, how good and it was. , whether he had a tattoo…
The fact that we hanged people for being gay made me proud, especially as we are one of the few countries with such laws…
I think it’s going to be really shocking to a lot of people that we ever did that. And even more shocking is that we continued to do it until 1835. Most countries never did.
The president of Burundi is now saying that homosexuals should be taken out and stoned
Did that history come as news to you too?
Not really. I think I’m an old fashioned gay person, in a way. I’m 62. I went to university when the age of consent was 21 and people were still arrested for importing, under the Vagrancy Act of 1824. That’s partly why, I hope a younger generation of people will read the this book. Not only because there are plenty of places in the world where these things still go on. The president of Burundi is now saying that homosexuals should be taken out and stoned.
It must be a constant source of frustration and anger for you that the Anglican communion still seems to be part of the problem rather than part of the solution to address that?
I love the church in many ways. I am a former priest. But it is a great pity that the Church of England is still unable to get its act together [gay relationships]. At the moment, it feels like even the Pope should get there first. I think that one day, people will look back on this period of our history and ask: “How could the church be so slow to recognize that it is okay for people to love each other ?”
Were those attitudes one of the reasons why you abandoned the priesthood for politics?
It was a very important part of it. Definitely.
You were a very busy chairman of the parliamentary standards committee. Do you see yourself as a strong moral person?
I’m not very judgmental, partly because I hate the idea of other people judging me for my sexuality. I want a society based on respect and mutual recognition, rather than someone looking down his nose and going: “Oh, yes, I’m going to accept you.”
You have said that you feel less safe as a gay man in Britain last five years – what did you mean by that?
I wasn’t saying that if I go out into the street, I feel like I’m going to get high – although the number of concerns has increased significantly. It’s more when I hear some Conservative politicians talking, it feels like they want to roll back some of the legislation. We have not yet banned conversion therapy. And then you hear people like Kemi Badenoch referring to a trans “epidemic”. You think, my God, what is going on in the minds of these people?
Considering your day jobs, how do you find the time to write?
I get up quite early. I don’t have children. And the time I would have spent many years ago going to church on Sunday, I spend in my studies writing. Also, I feel as if this book is part of my job as an MP. I don’t know why, for example, we haven’t issued posthumous pardons to people like James and John yet. At the very least, there should be a memorial somewhere for the people we hanged as a nation because of their sexuality.
What books meant the most to you as a reader?
It is the novel that I go back to The Red and the Black by Stendhal. I love the moral ambiguity. I read a lot of Dickens. And I read the Bible – I love the fact that Jesus taught through parables rather than rules.
What books do you currently have by your bedside?
I am reading Anna Reid A small war about the west’s attempt to undermine the communist revolution in Russia. Judi Dench’s book about Shakespeare is forthcoming.
• James and John: A True Story of Prejudice and Murder by Chris Bryant published by Bloomsbury (£25). To support the Guardian and Observer order your copy at guardianbookshop.com. Delivery charges may apply
